#E49 How Do We Create An Environment That Boosts Longevity? With Tina Woods

About Tina Woods

Tina Woods is a social entrepreneur, author, system architect, and health and longevity expert, who is the Founder and CEO of Collider Health, and the Co-Founder and CEO of Longevity International. She is a renowned advocate for improving health parity and longevity who brings diverse stakeholders together in shared endeavors to improve and level up health, working at the cross-section of science, technology, investment, and policy/government.

Read the HYPERSCALE transcript

TINA WOOD - HYPERSCALE

[00:00] Briar: Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of HYPERSCALE. It's your host Briar Prestige. And today I've got Tina Woods with me on the show. Welcome to the show, Tina.

[00:11] Tina: Thank you for having me.

[00:14] Briar: So I was actually at the Dublin Longevity Conference in July, and I never had a chance to meet you, but I did see you on stage.

[00:24] Tina: Yes. I mean that already seems like such a long time ago. I've been on this whirlwind sort of multi-city tour ever since then. So it does seem a long time ago, but it wasn't that far away. 

[00:34] Briar: Jumping on into it. I'm really excited to be picking your brains because I've been posting a little bit about longevity on my social media channels recently, and it was just so fascinating the kind of responses that I'm getting. I'm getting such negativity even around saying I'm trying to stay healthy, which I find very surprising. So let's talk a little bit about you, your background and talk a little bit about longevity. Like what is longevity?

[01:08] Tina: So what is longevity? So that in itself is a really good question because I think we have a language barrier. People speak about longevity, but they're coming at it from many, many different standpoints and talk about in very, very different ways. So I think for the normal puncher on the street, I think that can be really confusing. And I think as we've seen more and more interest in our health, and obviously coming out of Covid was one of the triggers for that actually. There's more and more interest and of course we're seeing that in the press over and over again. We're seeing a lot of stuff on longevity, the blue zones, for example and so forth. So yeah, there's been a lot of interest.

[01:49] Tina: And I think with that, there's been partly driven, and I wouldn't say it's misinformation, but I think there's a lot of information coming out. There is so much research and new data and science that's coming out and everyone's sort of jumping on the little bits and then that gets communicated into the general media. And for those who perhaps haven't been around sort of studying this space for a while, it's really, really difficult to kind of separate out sort of what they really should be taking away and not and actually at the end of the day, in the end it's about N equals 1 solution. That I think is the big message really, is that there are some general things that we can all do to kind of, extend our health span, which are kind of the obvious ones to be honest.

[02:32] Tina: We may not want to do it. But really what will really change your health trajectory and give you those extra healthy, happy, longer years, it's actually quite an individual sort of solution. And it will require a whole mix of different interventions, which is again, where the cutting edge of longevity research is really trying to understand and untangle. And it's almost like the more that we're finding out, the more that we realize we don't know about the whole. And some people may have heard about the hallmarks of aging and how we used to have nine, now we've got more of them coming along. As we're finding out more, we're realizing how complicated it is. And actually we're realizing that what we're finding out in mice and nematode worms may not actually translate to the test as humans.

[03:15] Tina: We're very different beasts and we're quite irrational creatures. We're very driven by peer influence, our behaviors, our wider sort of environments which I call, the exosome. And that's a lot of the work that I'm doing is actually untangling what all this research means in terms of human flourishing and resilience in our wider environments, because that's the next sort of cutting edge frontier, which I think is, going to be really exciting to understand because it's sort of going to shed a spotlight really on a lot of the reasons, you know, what we're finding now coming out of Covid, where a lot of people are trapped by their situations, the wider determinants, some of which they can control, but many of them they can't. So that's obviously something that's much more intractable in many ways to solve for it. 

[04:06] Briar: I bet you just have such a fascinating job, just even as you said before, it's like the more you find out, the more questions you have. What kind of questions have been brought to light recently that you've been quite surprised about?

[04:22] Tina: Well, I think a lot of the questions sort of really relate to understanding this whole kind of how humans respond to their environments because some of us are less resilient than others. Like, for example, I think what we're really seeing and now sadly, for example, in the younger sort of crowd, mental health is rife. And clearly they've been deeply affected by a lot of the things that we're seeing in the world today. They're worried about climate change, social media, not being able to get a good job, at least used to be easier in their parents' day to be. And I'm talking more in this sort of the westernized world of course, and all this.

[05:02] Tina: Of course sort of worries about the future, these sort of psychological stresses are really starting to damage their health. And we're seeing that all over the place. And we're seeing also just how deeply affected we are by system inequalities. If you live in a poor area, if you don't have access to clean air, if you are disadvantaged, you're stressed about money, that automatically takes 10 years off your life. So understanding what really drives what I call kind of flourishing, human flourishing. It's deeply, deeply sort of linked with the wider circumstances and the wider determinants of our health. And that of course is then where governments have a role to play in creating healthier environments and create those environments in which we can make better choices about our lives.

[05:53] Tina: And I'm talking about even things like, for example, certainly in the states and certainly in the UK and other sort of more of the westernized world, we've got an obesity crisis, which is being driven by eating way too much ultra-processed food and junk food. And that's actually starting to kind of infect Africa and the blue zones. They're saying in Okinawa that because they now eat more of a westernized diet, that's already starting to take its toll on their sort of unhealthy life expectancy. And so these are all the sorts of things that shouldn't be underestimated in the cutting edge. And I think really what I see is really exciting is how can we create what I call measurable blue zones, where we can actually, understanding the data and understanding what really makes us tick that may not translate from animal models, that's going to be the next frontier in terms of how we design future cities.

[06:47] Tina: I just came back from Honduras, visiting Roatan, the city of life, Vitalia. And that was fascinating because they're effectively creating their whole kind of nation state around longevity. Just really exciting. And I think, they're seeing this as an opportunity to kind of create a longevity tech hub. And of course they're looking at sort of agile regulation and sort of how can you shortcut sort of trials for the therapeutics end of things. And that's obviously very exciting, but I see it as their much wider context in how they're building a community from scratch. And they've obviously got a beautiful island. They have access to the sea. So how do you create that environment, to really support human flourishing and also address equity issues.

[07:31] Tina: It's one thing if you've got resources and money, you tend to be more likely to have a good, long, healthy, happy life because you don't have to worry about stuff as much as someone who may have been, born in a poor area. So I think these are all the sort of things that will inevitably come up in the design of their sort of utopian sort of ideal. And then you've got other countries or other cities that are being developed like NEOM for example, in Saudi, they're developing a city of the future. They've got a very, very data-driven kind of view of what they want to create, which is really exciting. And of course, they're starting from a blank sheet of paper so they can take learnings from what hasn't been working.

[08:09] Tina: And we're seeing definitely from sort of our model of sickcare that is currently entrenched in the western world, it's clearly not working. We've got an aging demographic, chronic diseases, driven by wider systemic inequalities, driven by eating way too much junk food, not getting enough exercise, all this stuff that if you look at any site, some of the research reviews. In fact, there is one that just came out recently that got a lot of attention in the aging community, despite all this research, we still don't actually have many tools, kind of the longevity magic sort of fixes and actually comes out over and over again, the exercise, intermittent fasting, killer oak restriction, they attack all the hallmarks of aging, which is very complicated and very interlinked.

[08:55] Tina: And that still is showing, the best results. And of course, that's what you get in these areas, like the blue zones. Their activity is built in their day-to-day. They tend to eat very low-processed food. It's all like from their gardens, lots of fermented food, plant-based food, so it's all kind of like, it's kind of a strange thing, like all the stuff that your grandmother used to tell you is kind of like coming back full circle, saying, hang on a second in the days of us living as Neanderthals and we had to, the whole fight and flight, had to hunt for our food, we had periods where we didn't have enough food, that was the intermittent fasting. But these are all sort of coming to kind of buy us in this convenience-led culture is not actually serving us very well. 

[09:37] Tina: So it's kind of interesting. There's kind of going back to the future sort of element that is coming through with all the research and the science and the data that's now really shining a spotlight in all this and giving us the real evidence, that should filter through an investment in policy decisions and sort of how we design things in the future to really support human flourishing.

[10:00] Briar: It's really positive to hear about these cities that are building these, like smart, healthy cities, because you are right. It is a sickcare, not a healthcare system that we seem to have found ourselves in. And what I find very difficult from a day-to-day perspective is I have to make really conscious decisions to be healthy over being unhealthy. It's more expensive, it's a lot harder. I'll be traveling, I'll be at an airport and I'll be starving, and I'll go and try and find a meal to eat and I can't eat anything because it's all just like croissants and sandwiches and things that I don't eat. And then we've got our phones and all these little cheap dopamine hits that they're giving us. It's like you are right, we have to take a step back and make a really conscious decision and commit to doing what granny advised.

[10:54] Tina: We're setting ourselves up to fail in the way that things are structured at the moment. And I think this is what is really starting to bite us. And it's really becoming clear about what certainly does not promote good health and wealth. I mean, poor health is now literally dragging down economies of nations. I mean, this is actually what is happening. And certainly in the UK, which is where I'm based, this is actually what is happening. But the thing is, what comes out, we are very irrational beings as human beings. We're so irrational, whole behavior. Yeah exercise is hard work and we like things that are easy and of course we want things that are cheap and convenient. So somehow we have to create a different set of incentives and nudges that will promote healthier behaviors.

[11:43] Tina: And so everything is working against us at the moment in the sick care sort of model. And I think that's actually the real challenge of the future. And this is where we can really and of course is very much at the heart of all the work that I'm doing at the moment with the Quantum Healthy Longevity Innovation Mission that I'm doing, attached to this Longevity Cities Program. Taking learning from what's working in environments that are already there. There are some that are struggling much more than others because again being trapped in some of the challenges that we've just been talking about. And then of course, the ones in the future where we can take the learning from what we know isn't working and especially from a data perspective and then build that into what we can, what can support human flourishing, moving forward.

[12:21] Tina: But in the end, it is about behavior. And I think our behavior and a whole sort of psychological sake, I mean, I would love to get involved and I've been saying this for a while now, I'd love to get involved in a scientific study on how hope and optimism will impact our biology because in the end, we're very, very driven by our peers, by our sense of purpose, our hopes and dreams for the future and these are the sorts of things that we need to understand because that is at the heart of a lot of, I think misery and suffering and why we're sort of trapped in this ill health. And especially with mental health, for example and with our younger population in particular, I think that's really going to start to become, it's a tsunami wave that's about to hit us as well.

[13:06] Tina: So we've talked about the aging demographic, but I think the mental health crisis with our younger populations is another one that's going to really start to bite us. So we do have to understand how can we address what really works in terms of promoting human flourishing as I call it, that resilience piece and really kind of tackling that head on and where we've got the technology and now with the evidence through the data and all the AI and quantum technologies that can really start to understand and unravel some of the complexities around that.

[13:32] Briar: Yeah. I think just even circling in on what you say a little bit more as well, I think that today we just don't dream enough. We don't get excited enough, I don't think we spend enough time just even sitting in silence and thinking creative thoughts. And I think part of the reason is because we are in this little hamster wheel, we are worried about the next paycheck or how we're going to pay our power bill if we live in the UK, like things like this. And again, I guess it does come back to environment and it comes back to the setup and the government support and things like this. Do you feel that… I just even think of the US and they are a very wealthy country, yet they have… you could probably help me out with this, so they're a very wealthy country, but what's their age, their average age that they die. It's a lot lower, isn't it, than the likes of New Zealand and Australia.

[14:31] Tina: Yeah. I mean, their life expectancy isn't nearly as good as it should be considering that they spend far more than any other country in the world as a proportion of their GDP on healthcare. So that's a sick care model. So the whole incentive structures as a nation is built around treating you when you're sick. And all the institutions and interests around that are propped up actually by chronic diseases. That's the problem. It's the whole incentive structures that are misaligned. And they're perversely against you, they're all oriented around sick care. And so I think that is one of the big problems. And then we have some of the wider issues. Again, it's linked to some of the system inequalities, which again, other countries are suffering from and certainly in the UK. 

[15:21] Tina: We have the whole death by despair. I mean, I was in Silicon Valley little less than a year ago. And here I was sort of in the ivory towers, speaking to all these amazing scientists all like really interested in like cracking the code to enable us to live for a very long time and even on immortality. And yet I'm literally tripping over homeless people and people who are obviously on drugs and all the rest of it just because they've lost hope. They've lost their hope and dreams and there's something seriously going wrong there. I think these are the sorts of things that, for those who are in a position to influence things, we have to seriously address because in the end, what is all this wonderful science and technology for? Is it just to benefit a certain type of person, if you're wealthy and you can afford all this sort of stuff, or is it really about, making sure that all of us have access to it? So I think there are lots of things that are coming out of this whole debate about what kind of society do we want, what are the government's structures, what is capitalism good? I mean, it's all these sorts of things that I think are starting to really bubble up and create a lot of, I guess discussion and debate. And just for example, where I was in Honduras last week, there are questioning the whole nation stage, like how do we govern ourselves, for the good of our people.

[16:47] Tina: So I think there's some much bigger questions that are being asked, partly driven by this sort of strange kind of perverse situation we find ourselves. We've got this amazing science and technology and yet we still find that we're dealing with this sort of, the human condition, like all these big questions about humanity and equity, so yeah. So we're at a very interesting time, I think for all sorts of different reasons. And hopefully technology will help us as a force for good to help us solve some of those bigger questions.

[17:22] Briar: Yes. And hopefully these cities that are starting and governing things in the right way. Hopefully the likes of the US who's a little bit backwards and spends trillions of dollars on nuclear bombs and puts mere millions or it was such a tiny amount, I was so appalled when I saw it towards longevity research. Hopefully it starts to kind of flip the switch a little bit more and it starts to become this healthcare system, not sickcare system because actually people would save more money if it was around the other way. Am I correct in saying that?

[17:55] Tina: Absolutely. I mean, if we were built around health rather than sickness and really focused our energies on making sure that we keep healthy and well for as long as possible. And these are some of the strategies that of course, some of the countries that are getting it right, like Singapore is often talked about because they've recognized, they have this challenge of this aging demographic. And of course, the hotbed of longevity research is very much around untangling the complexities of the aging process. So you're absolutely right there needs to be more research funding for that cutting edge research, because as I mentioned, all the things that we know affect our health trajectory affect the mechanisms underlying the aging process and why we break down as we age are fundamentally affected by all the factors that I was mentioning before around the exosome.

[18:44] Tina: So we have to understand that, we have to get under the skin of that research because it will enable us to get the evidence to put a spotlight, well where shouldn't be putting our money. Should it be on building more hospitals or should it be moving upstream in terms of creating those environments for health? So I think Singapore is interesting because they've recognized things like we need to make sure that we're supporting our older populations. And actually they don't have the problems that we have in the West around ageism, for example. So that's actually a big problem. They really want to support people as they grow older, that they're not thrown in the junkie once you hit like 60. There's actually a lot of data that shows you are at your most productive at the age of 65 because you have all the wisdom and knowledge from the fact that you've lived a while. 

[19:33] Tina: And if you keep healthy, you can give back and be productive. It's a really, really productive age. So they've gotten onto that and they also have realized that incentives around keeping the family unit going and making it easier for young people to live closer to their aging relatives, for example, because they know that those family bonds are really important. So what we have in the UK for example, a lot of people end up going into care homes and that is usually the start of a fast decline just because they lose their sense of place, their history, their whole emotional connections in their homes. So these are the sorts of things that the Singaporean have realized. 

[20:09] Tina: So it's quite interesting how they've kind of come up with some very different solutions to how they deal with their aging demographic. And of course they've put a lot of investment behind aging research. And of course there are some amazing scientists like Brian Kennedy and Andrea Maier who are out there, who are all really trying to understand, what is that sort of formula to keep people going for as long as possible. So those are things that we need to kind of look at and take back and make sure that we're sort of working into the future.

[20:38] Briar: I was watching that Netflix show about the blue zones, and that was something that really stood out to me is the fact that these older people had so much purpose. Like people were relying on them whether they were growing the vegetables or they had to take somebody out for a walk, like they had that community. I was speaking to someone actually who'd read an article very recently actually about how in Japan, ladies who have gone to prison, who come out of prison actually want to go back to prison because they had such a sense of community there that they just did not have in the outside world. And loneliness kills. It really does. There's data to show this.

[21:18] Tina: Yeah, loneliness is the biggest killer of older people. I mean, it is a massive killer, you're absolutely right. And it goes back to this whole point about humans are very social creatures. Our whole sense of self and belonging is completely attached to our relationships with our families, our friends, our community. So I think once you start breaking down that sense of community, things start to fall apart. So I think that social fabric, these are the sorts of things that we need to really build into the future. And I think that's part of the reason actually that we're seeing this sort of unraveling, well this sort of mental health tsunami I was mentioning in our younger populations because we have all this hybrid working, they are obviously isolated during Covid, during lockdown.

[22:03] Tina: There's this whole kind of attachment that they have, which is a real risk, I think to the whole sort of fabric, the whole social fabric and I think those countries where that hasn't happened yet. And I think, you look at for example in India and Africa, these so-called kind of… the developing world, they haven't been affected by that as much as we have in the Western world. So I think we have to kind of take stock, about all of these sorts of things. What does that sense of community actually mean and how now that's a really important part of the life sort of formula so to speak.

[22:41] Briar: It's very interesting. I often think about how through technology these days we're almost more connected, but almost more divided as well with social media and things like this. Artificial intelligence has been such a big buzz word lately, hasn't it? Everybody's talking about artificial intelligence. Tell us about the impact that AI is having in the healthcare healthspan space.

[23:07] Tina: So yeah, so that's a really interesting one, and I've got a bit of, I guess, a journey with that myself because I started doing quite a lot of work in this space, but very much in the healthcare context. So I was very involved, doing quite a lot of initial research working with the setup of the NHS, which is our national healthcare system in the UK, the AI lab, because they wanted to see what the impact was going to be of these technologies in the future of healthcare system. And this is about six years ago now that I started doing this. So I kind of immersed myself in actually trying to understand the impact of AI and speaking to all the startups and like doing this sort of baseline analysis where the technology was going to hit.

[23:46] Tina: So I was very involved in that piece of work and of course the obvious areas which everyone probably knows already... For example, imaging. I mean, it's already, being able to spot sort of patterns and tumors and X-rays and things like that, far better than the human eye can be, just because of pattern recognition and so forth. So that was the obvious use case that very quickly became quite well established and recognized as the area where AI would be felt very quickly and indeed it has. And then of course back office support, sort of automation and general sort of functions, things like that. And then of course I started doing quite a lot of work with UK research and innovation on healthy aging actually.

[24:28] Tina: And actually looking at how these new technologies were going to support healthy aging, the whole healthy aging kind of marketplace, but also, in the end, be harnessed to keep us healthy and well for longer. And what I realized and this again, is where I started to really engage with the cutting edge of longevity research, is actually the really interesting place, which is at very much where I'm working now is AI in terms of keeping us healthy and well. And that is all about understanding our health and [inaudible] everything that is not in that electronic medical record. It is everything to do that is not about the care that you receive by your doctors and in hospitals. It is everything to do about keeping yourself out of hospitals. So I was really interested in that element of it.

[25:12] Tina: So I was approached about five years ago now to write a book, which I did, but I said, and that's on Amazon and all the rest of it. And they asked me initially, we'd really like you to do a book on AI and healthcare because you're kind of considered an expert and that was blah, blah blah. And I said, you know what? I want to do a book about AI and health and actually about healthy aging and healthy longevity. So that's what I was commissioned to do. I'm really interested in actually using access to data and using our technologies. And it's not just AI anymore, it's about quantum, which is a whole next level, of the technology to really understand data at scale and actually really understanding the patterns that we're getting through all this data that we're now collecting on our lives, which is evermore so.

[25:56] Tina: So we've obviously got all the data coming through our phones, we've got now sensor technologies. And I mean speaking about NEOM the city of the future, I mean, that's going to be uber-connected and linked up to sort of pollen counts and air pollution and all those sorts of things. So we will get an incredible picture of what is it that really promotes health span, but also resilience because that's a whole other dimension, which is all around stress and our abilities to withstand stress, but ultimately it's about flourishing what will really keep us with that sense of purpose and hope. I mean, that ultimately is, that's kind of like the nirvana really, we really want to understand. So that's where I think AI [has] a huge role to play in a way that us humans will never be able to fathom.

[26:43] Tina: And that goes back because all of them, and I know many fantastic, researchers and academics and scientists in longevity science, and they're all very, very, as they have to be as scientists, they're very, very focused on that one specialism or that one hallmark of aging, whatever it might be. But we need to understand all the interconnectivities and all the pathways and that's where all these technologies are going to absolutely be crucial for us to unravel the complexities. I mentioned, the more that we find out, the more that we realize how complicated it is. So we're really going to have to harness those technologies to find out what is it at an N equals 1 level that will really drive that solution for all of us at an individual level. 

[27:26] Tina: And of course, you want to extrapolate and aggregate that at a population health level, because then that will influence policy and investment and government decisions around where do you get the biggest bang for your buck. It's a whole new economic model built around health generation. And that's what we're finding because health and wealth and prosperity are absolutely interlinked and of course completely linked with the climate change and planetary health as well, which we found at COP28 this year. Because of course, the causes and the solutions of health and our healthy longevity are absolutely interlinked with planetary health. So we have to get and again, this is where the technology piece is going to be so fascinating to help us understand all that.

[28:07] Briar: I was thinking about my WHOOP watch recently and about how it's almost like turning my body inside out. I'm able to kind of get a sense of what's going on in there. And I was also thinking as well about how the WHOOP atch, or not even the WHOOP watch, but just like an algorithm could potentially make better decisions sometimes than what our brain could, because we are very complex, we're emotional, we're messy as human beings and when we get tired, we eat the croissant over the eggs and we make potentially unhealthy decisions. Do you foresee like a future with more things like wearables and artificial intelligence perhaps governing some of these day-to-day decisions?

[28:55] Tina: I mean, it's already governing and influencing our decisions. And I think what we need is making sure, because if you buy a phone now, it automatically starts recording, it's already capturing lots of data. So I think there's a whole issue around what data that they’re collecting and for what reasons. And obviously there's a whole kind of ethics around that, which is a whole other story as we know. Because people want to know how their data is being used and although we share a lot of data without even kind of thinking about it, obviously with our phones and tech and things that we use every day in our lives. So there's already a lot of data being collected, but I think it's more around, well, how are we actually going to use that data?

[29:34] Tina: What are the insights that we're going to get from that data? Already, there are loads of apps that are already obviously using, sort of ChatGPT, all the generative AI and sort of acts, individualized coaching based on the information that's available, which potentially could be quite, well it could potentially be dangerous because the thing is again, going back to my point earlier, it is N equals 1 level that we really have to be thinking in terms of what really will matter most to our health. I mean, of course there's the generalized things that we know about already, but I think we're seeing, for example, there's this whole multi-billion, trillion-dollar industry built up around supplements. Actually, what we're finding, there are a lot of people who take supplements, where there's absolutely no evidence base behind that whatsoever.

[30:20] Tina: And actually it might even be dangerous taking too many supplements. We still don't have any idea of the interactions between these supplements. But if you ask an AI, oh what supplements should I take? You probably get, it'll be interesting, you can ask the right questions, you'll get sort of, it'll spit out the right answer, but actually what it doesn't tell you is actually what will really work for you. And that's the cost of research that we're all trying to work out, at the moment. So I think there’s obviously huge potential of harvesting these technologies and already it's being used all over the place. But there's obviously the risk attached to which of course is very much the heart of a lot of ethicists and people like looking at this from, we've got new [31:02 inaudible] from the UK, trying to sort of answer a lot of these questions around safety and ethics around AI. 

[31:09] Tina: So these are big questions because it could potentially be dangerous, obviously and everyone's been talking about that, including people like Elon Musk, as we know. There are some potential dangers. So we do need to get it right in terms of the safety guards, the rail guards, without minimizing the potential of obviously innovating and being able to elucidate the mysteries that we are, on the cusp of understanding, in terms of aging research, etcetera. 

[31:37] Briar: Who do you think should kind of govern this data for us? Like do you think there's enough people sort of putting I guess the trainer wheels on or is there enough diversity in the people that are making decisions? It's interesting, I think.

[31:54] Tina: It's a very interesting question. And we are nowhere near solving that. I think the world needs to come together. I think even going back to this AI safety institute that I mentioned, that was kind of like the solution as it were, coming out of this Bletchley Park sort of meeting that was held last November where Biden and Rishi Sunak and [32:20 inaudible] involved, the Chinese and there's all this sort of geopolitics and all the sensitivities around cyber and all that kind of stuff, it's all this sort of geopolitics that started to kind of enter into the discussion about who to involve. But you make a really, really, really good point though about diversity and inclusion and of course a lot of the things that are out there in terms of standards and guidance coming out of the EU.

[32:48] Tina: And certainly some of the stuff that I've been involved in. I was involved in in the British Standards Institute use of, sort of safe and ethically applied AI and healthcare. This is in healthcare. But I mean, there's been a lot of really good work actually. And actually the UK have been pretty much, from the early days because when I was working on the AI piece for the NHS, we were the first, one of the first in the world actually to come up with a code of conduct. Because of course one of the guiding principles in the NHS is you don't want to leave anyone behind and everyone needs to have access to healthcare. So that was one of our guiding principles, which is a really important one. 

[33:23] Tina: It's these principles and it's these sort of context-specific principles that are really important to get right because the innovation will always be quicker than the regulators can adapt. So I think that principles-based context-based sort of approach is really important in terms of setting the right governance structures, etcetera. But yeah, I mean, I think it needs to be the whole world coming together. And we haven't quite figured it out yet. 

[33:49] Briar: Let's talk about fasting. So you mentioned intermittent fasting before and how that does have longevity benefits. How long should we be fasting for? Is there a particular window we should look for? I know my listeners are going to be asking about this.

[34:04] Tina: So fasting is a really interesting one. And it's so funny because I think I mentioned there's this paper that came out that got a lot of attention. And of course, in the longevity community, despite all this research, it's like it still comes through that the main things to do are exercise, intermittent fasting, caloric restriction. And the thing is, I started fasting and doing intermittent fasting, so myself individually, so I fast and this is pretty much all day. I have a light meal at night for four days a week. So that's my fasting regimen, which for me works. And the reason why I started doing that was for several reasons. I remember, so I mentioned this book that I wrote and was published about four years ago. And I've interviewed many, many scientists, many experts in this space, one of whom who's very, very well-known [34:52 inaudible].

[34:52] Tina: He's a wonderful person and very, very accomplished scientist and academic. I remember meeting him, and this is just meeting him in his office and he had just stopped his fast. He said, oh, I'm dying to eat. And we started getting on this conversation. We ended up having sushi, as it were. And we ended up having this whole conversation about fast. He was telling me about the size of the mice and how they found out that it was an interval that was very, very important as much as the caloric restriction. And all this sort of started getting me thinking. So actually it was after that meeting that I started looking at this. And for me it's a really important dimension that I follow.

[35:33] Tina: And I think in terms of what regimen, I think part of it relates to us being irrational. Now, even though it said, oh, actually the better way of fasting is to have breakfast and then last a whole day and not have the meal in the evening. But for me, I wouldn't be able to do that. That's just me as an individual. I do it the other way around. So in the end, you have to kind of like do what you know behaviorally you can follow. And I think it's as much. And then the rest of the three, so I fast from Monday to Thursday, and then I tend to let myself sort of have what I want so that the other three days, I mean, I don't go crazy, but I think it's as much to do with the types of foods that you eat.

[36:10] Tina: And of course, and once we discover the intricacies of what works individually for you because it's as much about your microbiome and that's where fermented foods obviously is really important, things like that. So what you eat is obviously very important, but I think the intervals, clearly it's basically putting you in a state of some survival mode. It's kind of like an enforced flight-and-fight sort of survival mode. Kind of like going back to what we were talking about before, going back into the past when we were hunter-gatherers, there are periods of time that you actually didn't get very much to eat at all. And so you're kind of almost mimicking those scenarios from the past that actually kept us in really good health.

[36:53] Tina: And then of course, when you did find the food, it was like berries and grains and non-processed food and things like that. So in a funny sort of way, we're, again going back to that past, which actually is better for you and then we're really starting to understand the science about why it is that intermittent fasting works and it's all these mechanisms relating back to the hallmarks of aging that we're really trying, which again we're understanding and understanding why it is that intermittent fasting is working, which again, is the whole kind of new cusp of obviously the research and the data that we're finding out.

[37:30] Briar: Is it because, and I'm going to put this in very basic terms and I'm sure you're going to give the more sciencey stuff behind it, but when we're intermittent fasting, does it kind of eat away at like old cells?

[37:44] Tina: So that's part of it, but it's not all of it. It's part of it. And I think what they're finding out i how complex it is. I mean, for example, it comes down, I mean, to get really sciencey about it. And this is where the paper that I mentioned that had been published and got a lot of attention, I mean, to getting very science about it, it's to do with rapamycin inhibition. It's about signaling. It's very, very complicated. And so this is where, and of course, all the, sort of the things that are mimicking caloric restriction, it's things like rapamycin, metformin, resveratrol, all the kind of things that are arriving in the supplements space. So these are all the things, and these are kind of like, I guess the quick fix kind of part of that equation. 

[38:33] Tina: What can we take that will make it easier? Because, I mean, I don't want to fast for all those hours. So this is where the cutting edge of longevity research is so interesting because hopefully by understanding all these pathways and knowing that a lot of people won't put up with going for 16 hours without food that I do four days a week. A lot of people just won't be able to do that from a behavioral point of view so what is it from what we can mimic, from the actual targets in the pathways. So that I think is a really interesting piece about all this which we're trying to figure out.

[39:07] Briar: Yes. And food as you mentioned is also complicated. So I actually did my GlycanAge test at the Longevity Conference and granted, quite a bit of blood came out. I was quite surprised. But it actually came back telling me that I was seven years older than my actual age. And God, I was so pissed about it because I feel like I was doing all the right things that Granny would've told me. I was eating healthy. I wasn't eating processed food, I wasn't eating sugar, I was exercising, I was trying to sleep. I just felt like I was following the rules. So when it came back with telling me I was older, I said to him like, why, how, like, how is this? And one of the things we tried to kind of pick my life apart a little bit and something we discovered I was doing was I was just eating the same foods all the time. I had a very narrow, granted, I ate like vegetables and meats and cheese and it was varied in that sense, but it was just like the same foods all the time.

[40:16] Tina: So that's super interesting. And it's funny you mentioned GlycanAge. So I did the GlycanAge test right before I started HRT. I'm literally about to turn 60 so I've gone through the menopause and when I hit 50, and that often is the time that you start to think about these sort of things and you realize your body is starting to fall apart or you just start to realize that, you know what, you can't hide the fact that you are aging and that really hits you when you hit 50. At least it did for me. And at that point, I said to myself, oh, I'm just going to age gracefully and let nature take its course but then as time went by and then I went into menopause. Fortunately, I didn't really have a terrible menopause or anything like that, but I sort of just started realizing, because everyone was saying, well HRT, why are you on HRT? 

[41:11] Tina: And I'm like, well, I had terrible menopause. But then of course I realized I was being quite irrational because what was in my head was I didn't want to take anything "unnatural." And that was actually the initial barrier that I had in my mind about taking HRT. But as soon as I became more rational, I'm like, okay, I'm going to look at the science. And of course there's the old science that said HRT and like contraceptive pills is bad, increased risk of cancer and all that.

[41:37] Tina: But I actually, when you got the new HRTs and all that, I realized, what the hell am I doing? It's actually, there are longevity benefits, cardiovascular, metabolic health and all these sorts of things. So I started, so that was around the time that I actually took my first GlycanAge test because I'm a guinea pig for all sorts of stuff. And I've done various tests and all the rest of it. So I did take my GlycanAge test and I got the result. And I had mentioned at the time oh, I'm just about to start HRT. And she said, well, why don't you see how your age is affected, your GlycanAge is affected by HRT and I'm just about to take the test again.

[42:13] Tina: And I've been on HRT for almost two years now. So I'm going to see what has changed as a result of that, because hormones and that is a hugely unexplored space, hormones especially because we've had this period of time when it was like, there’s all this scaremongering about taking hormones actually. We're now finding that actually there are all these beneficial effects of hormones. And I think it's a massive area, and certainly for women, but also for men by the way, on how that can make a huge difference in terms of your healthy longevity and your sort of trajectory moving forward. So anyway I'm going to take the GlycanAge test.

[42:50] Briar: Keep us posted. Yeah, please do. I'll be so interested to see. When I was telling him about how angry I was that mine was older than my age. He said to me, well, who knows, maybe you were older before and you've actually been aging backwards. Like maybe your age was, I don't know, 40 or 50. 20 years older.

[43:13] Tina: You don't know until you start. The thing is, what's amazing and this is because I speak to a lot of longevity clinics now and they're all very, very different in their whole approach about where they start, the health span, health optimization, are they a longevity clinic? But basically it's around health and so you can very easily get to, you can deal with the realities of what your initial baseline assessment is. Usually you can do quite a lot quite quickly actually to kind of turn back the biological clock. But fine tuning that process, that's where the real art is. Because of course, going back to the N equals 1 and, we've got loads of biomarkers and aging clocks, and this is all the kind of the space, this new frontier that I'm very involved in around what aging biomarkers are best in terms of the interventions, in terms of also really what matters to us because in the end, we care about just being able to do the stuff that we want to do in our lives and what gives us joy and all that sort of stuff. 

[44:06] Tina: So that's actually quite an important part of it and obviously with the FDA are interested in it as well, in terms of function and what have you. So there is actually, so it's that fine-tuning mechanism of being able to track actually what really works. So you need that insight, coming from the clocks and the biomarkers and all the rest of it, which allows you to start really fine tuning what will really deliver the long-term impact and the real optimization that at an individual level is exciting, and what will keep us motivated. I mean, that's the other thing. What's going to motivate us to keep doing the fasting or whatever it is, that we'll need to do to deliver the extra mile in terms of your health and what you're prepared to put up with as well.

[44:53] Briar: So true. What gets measured gets achieved. They often say this in business, I'm actually about to go to a longevity clinic soon and get all of my biomarkers and everything all tested and things. So I'm quite excited to hopefully hear no more bad news but on a positive note at least I can do something about it exactly right. So I'm empowered to do something about it. So I do think it's very interesting the kind of, I think the kind of trend that we're starting to see at the moment. It's almost becoming a little bit more popular now, isn't it? And I think it's been interesting to see the likes of Bryan Johnson. And I noticed that when he spoke at the Longevity Summit, I was quite curious to see how the longevity community of scientists and the people who have been doing this for 20, 30, 40 years, were going to react to him. But actually someone stood up and thanked him for bringing a lot of attention to this space. You were all like, we're in this together. 

[45:55] Tina: So he's an interesting character because he's his own N equals one experiment, like on rocket boosters. And we've got a lot to thank him for, for that because frankly, very few of us would put up with what he puts up with everyday being measured zillions of times, not traveling, because it'll affect his sleep patterns. I mean, I wouldn't do that. I love traveling. So it's almost like he's doing stuff that us more sort of, I guess people of more sort of, the normal sort of curve of things in terms of what we put up with, we will have a lot to gain from the insight that he's gathering on his own experiments. So I think… But in the end, it comes down to… It is his purpose. He's very clear about, it's his thing that he has to do. And as obviously, that's the motivating force behind everything that he is doing. So in the end, we are all so individual what we are prepared to do, to get to a healthy state. So yeah, it's interesting.

[47:01] Briar: It is very interesting. I often think I've been writing a recipe book for a while. And a lot of it is around this, quick, healthy recipes for people who hate the kitchen, people who want to go in and then leave after like 10 minutes, but have something healthy at the same time. And something that I've been writing about is very much about small sustainable habits. And I think it's an interesting thing, sometimes we might want to change X, Y, Z, this, that, and the other, about your life. But when you're doing all of these things at once, it can actually be quite difficult. People are often surprised, for instance, that I don't eat sugar and I do this thing and that thing and whatever, but these didn't all happen overnight. These were little changes, gradual changes that slowly just became a way of life. 

[47:52] Tina: I think that that is very sensible advice, because in the end, we have to ingrain these habits in our life. So it's something you just know you're not going to do. There's no point in trying to do it because you just won't do it. So those simple things that you know you can adopt and embrace as part of your day-to-day normal habits. It's pretty important. And going back, because I mean, people constantly ask me about the blue zones. I mean, I've been to blue zones, I'm kind of like visiting the future blue zones and trying to invent the new Blue zones of the future that are measurable and data-driven. I think in the end, the lessons that you get, again, going back to the future, it's those simple things.

[48:33] Tina: It's about getting your exercise. It's like, what will you be prepared to do that you have control over that you can do, that you will not see as complete drudgery? Start with those. It may be that there are other things that you need to do, which might take a bit more work, but at least start with those that you can control and that you know you can do. And then build from there, because then once you see the results from that, and once you get some self-reinforcement kind of motivation from that and then hopefully you can do more. Again, we have to see ourselves as very irrational and also very peer-influenced people. So buddying up, the whole Weight Watchers program, that works because you buddy up and you've got that peer support. So it's those sorts of things that you just have to, understanding us as human beings that are very, very irrational, very peer-led. We're social copiers, behavior is king. And we need a sense of hope and purpose. There has to be a point to all this, because that's what drives us as well. So it all has to be kind of interlinked.

[49:38] Briar: And we spoke about the fact that you intermittent fast before, when it comes to eating I've been informed that I should be eating 30 different types of food and part of this is fermented food. So I have sauerkraut in my fridge, and I actually kind of enjoy it. It's quite a good… you get like a little spoonful, and that's all you need, really. It kind of fixes any kind of cravings you have. But should we be eating 30 different kinds of food, in order to keep our gut microbe forest?

[50:09] Tina: I mean that seems to be borne out by the evidence. I mean, I think, so Tim Spector who's a professor at King's, who's very well regarded for his twin research, so he's studying like to what extent is genetics, or not, really important in terms of your healthy life expectancy and how spent. And then he's got the Zoe app, which is very much based around understanding the microbiome and what he has shown. And a lot of the research is showing, really how important, the gut is. And of course, there's the whole gut-mind psychology axis as well, which again, is another sort of frontier. But actually, so I think the variety of foods and the fermented foods are very much speaking about the microbiome and the diversity that you need to keep a very healthy gut.

[50:52] Tina: But I think, it may be that you as an individual will only need like 10 of those 30 foods, but again, this is where the science that will shed light on that. And I think that's where the individual N equals 1 thing is really important because the fact is, some of us metabolize potatoes or rice or whatever it is very, very differently. And that's again, what has been borne out by the research that Tim Spector has been doing. And actually it's impacted by the microbiome as well, in terms of how we actually even metabolize all this sort of stuff, which again, has been shown by the twin research. So I think, in the end, it's incredibly complicated and there's only a certain extent to which you can generalize.

[51:33] Tina: And I think that's what I also say, because I speak to the media, quite a lot and what is the danger at the moment is that we're absolutely besieged and barraged by all this information coming out of all this multitude of research that actually in many ways is often very contradictory. So it's no wonder we're quite confused about all this. So yeah, so I think, there's, I would say diversity and variety of food is always the way to go. I mean, rather than the other direction of eating less variety, for obvious reasons, because in the end, you're more likely to attack all the different, it comes down to those pathways again, the hallmarks. And already we're seeing that caloric restriction exercise. They're attacking multitudes at different levels of the system that's involved in our metabolism, etcetera. So I would veer in that direction if stuck. But in the end, eat what you like as well and make it actually a pleasant experience.

[52:35] Briar: Not chocolate and ice cream.

[52:39] Tina: Chocolate is supposed to be good. 

[52:40] Briar: True, actually, you're right. 

[52:42] Tina: And everything, I mean, listen, everything in moderation is going to be okay. And that goes for drinking and, it's all about moderation as well. I think that's the other thing too.

[52:52] Briar: I often have fascinating discussions with my colleague Georgia about longevity and things, because in some ways we have the same views and then in other ways we don't. She's my producer. So we produce a lot of the content together. So we are always bringing a very well-rounded thought process to it and things. And her kind of mindset is life should be for enjoyment. And sometimes if we're stressing over these smaller things, that stress actually might be less desirable for us than actually saying no to that piece of chocolate.

[53:31] Tina: Life is also a bit of a balance. And some of this is your own kind of, we all have our own views and belief systems, which again goes back to the irrational part of our human behavior. So I think there's going to be a recipe, a formula for all of us individually that, A), we can keep up with and keep stick to and all the rest of it. But in the end, I mean, life is about joy and happiness and doing stuff that you really love and get satisfaction from, so don't ignore that. That's really important. I mean, for me, I mean, I love to dance and I love being in the mountains like that to me is really important.

[54:12] Tina: So I will do anything it takes to keep myself mobile and fit and all that to be able to do the stuff that I really love to do. And that is a really important part of my motivations for everything that I do, including my work, actually. And also, I mean, I meet amazing people all the time and that's obviously very enriching, so that is all part of my work and my passion, and that's all part of the recipe as well and has nothing to do with supplements and pills or anything like that.

[54:46] Briar: Yes. You mentioned belief systems there and absolutely people have a huge variety of belief systems when it comes to the topic of longevity. I posted, yeah, like I said earlier in the conversation, I've made various different posts ranging from I'm going to freeze my body in cryonics if I die, which is obviously the more extreme through to I'm exercising and eating well because I think that I have a responsibility to those around me to be my best self. And on both sides of the coin, people hated what I was saying. And I got responses saying that I was being selfish, that I had to make way for other people on the planet. People spoke about the haves and the have nots, only the wealthy actually having access to these kinds of technologies or interventions. Do you get much of this Tina, or what are sort of your thoughts about all of this?

[55:44] Tina: So everything that I do is absolutely guided by this principle of equity. I do think and I'm very strongly motivated by this in everything that I do, that I think all this cutting edge technology should not just be in the preserve of those who can get access to it, whether it's through influence, money, and power, whatever. So for me, that's a really important driving force for me, in terms of what I do. So I think the whole equity piece and making sure that dividends, that we are able to get from all this cutting edge research does spread, as far and as wide as possible. So that I think is really important. But I think belief is an interesting one because I think we've all heard about the placebo effect. And I think a lot of people will tell you, like for example, with this whole supplements business, I mean, the amount of supplements that people take, which have no evidence whatsoever behind it and could potentially be dangerous, if you take too many, and actually you most invariably are going to be weeing them out. Many people take them all together and literally like in the next hour, whatever, they like pass through your urine anyway. So it's just like wasted.

[56:50] Briar: It's expensive,

[56:51] Tina: It's expensive, but actually don't underestimate the fact that you feel you are doing something and you then feel good about the fact that you're doing this is in itself a motivation and in itself will actually probably give you a couple of years of actually healthy life expectancy. It's kind of like that placebo effect and it kind of relates down to that hope and that sort of thing that you're doing. You're doing something. So I think that actually is important. I think the danger is, there could be dangers to doing too much of it and I think that will eventually be borne out by more and more of the research and all the rest of it because there is a danger. I mean, taking hundreds of supplements could potentially be damaging.

[57:33] Tina: So that is something that people should be more aware of and probably aren't. So belief systems are important. And I think faith, religion, the transhumanist movement, these are very much around, how we think about our life and how we think about death and what is the, the human condition? These are the philosophical questions that invariably come into this whole debate. And is it unique to each and every one of us, what is our kind of guiding light our north star for our lives, our sense of purpose and meaning?

[58:18] Briar: I think it's very interesting and this is why I love these sorts of topics so much is because it's never black and white really, isn't it? And as you said before, it's like almost the more layers you peel away from the onion, the more sort of questions you have. And I think certainly when it comes to these sorts of topics and something that I sort of think about is rather than just saying like, no, that can't happen. Like, no, we can't live longer than, I don't know, 120 or whatever. But if we look back at the past and we just think about how difficult and harsh our lives were and what short little lives that we lived and we used to die of a tooth cavity and that used to be seen as quite a common sort of thing. And then it's actually thinking today, well, oh, who says it's not possible? Like, why not look at science and why not try, rather than just saying, no, that's not going to work because why, like, who are we to decide?

[59:20] Tina: Sure. And there's a lot of incredible potential, that the science and with supporting technologies are going to show us. And so yeah, it's hugely exciting. And there's a lot of hope and optimism about cracking the mysteries of life.

[59:39] Briar: The mystery, yes. 

[59:41] Tina: Which is hugely exciting but in the end it has to relate to us as humans and what gives us meaning in our lives. And I often say to those who say, well, why wouldn't you want to live forever? And I'm like, well, you know what? If you have a crap life, you probably don't want to live forever. Have you ever asked someone who's depressed and doesn't have it so good? These are all sort of some of the bigger questions. So that's why I think it's a multifaceted question, this whole search for what is longevity all about, for all of us individually and collectively.

[1:00:20] Briar: Do you think that, so longevity escape velocity, so the concept of as we get older, we potentially could find the science and technology to help age us backwards, so to speak, you'll obviously give a better definition than what I just did, but do you think that this could be a real possibility? 

[1:00:42] Tina: It's a very interesting question and I think and obviously Aubrey de Grey, who I know very well and admire and he has inspired so many people to actually, go into this field. And one of the first people that I ever spoke, in fact, interviewed for my book as well. And of course he talks a lot about longevity, escape velocity, but he's also a little bit, I guess ambiguous in terms of when we might achieve it because I think he knows and I think what's happening more and more is as we discover more, we're realizing how much we still don't know. So I think there's a little bit of hedging the bets there that I think is important. And I think there's also some fascinating kind of new work again through technology and physics and systems modeling and looking at the data and all the rest of it.

[1:01:35] Tina: So, so people like Peter Fedichev and Alexey Strygin and Maxim Kholin, from GERO.AI, they've been looking at this whole, what is, bearing, looking at the data, what looks to be the maximum human lifespan, which they've calculated I think at 138. And they've looked at resilience and this whole things, the things that we were talking about before, us as humans who do suffer from chronic stresses in our environments and psychological distress and all these sorts of things, how that actually impacts the aging process and whether there are different mechanisms around resilience and aging process per se. These are all the sorts of things that as we get more and more data and as we are using more of these technologies, we will find, we will get closer to really understanding at what point, if ever we might achieve, longevity escape velocity.

[1:02:31] Tina: So the jury is very much out there. I would not want to even hazard a guess at this point. But I think we can do a lot better in terms of where we are now in terms of really pushing the maximum lifespan. And actually what we really want to see is obviously health span meeting lifespan. We want to be really healthy until right before we die. We don't want to compress that period of multimorbidity, which again is supercentenarian research is showing that's what happens to them. So they have a genetic, they have some sort of genetic advantage and other mechanisms. I mean, this is all what we're trying to find out, that keeps them going really, really well right until the bitter end and then suddenly something gets them. So that research invariably will tell us a lot more at really understanding what the recipe is for the super centenarians, whether we can push the boundaries to 150, so 150…

[1:03:28] Tina: So, we're about 120 about, the maximum. I know there's, Jean, the French lady who lived to 124, I think, but maybe pushing it to 150, maybe we'll get there. I don't know. We'll have to see. And that's where you then get people who will freeze themselves for however many centuries until, you know.

[1:03:50] Briar: Hopefully someone comes and revives us.

[1:03:52] Tina: And then they're going to think, oh God, I'm depressed. All my family is gone. 

[1:03:56] Briar: Yeah, exactly. Well, this is the funny part actually. I've started exploring life after death as well because I was like, God, if I'm signing up to freeze myself, like imagine if I'm stuck in a bloody canister and all my friends and family are off gallivanting in some beautiful fields together. And they're like, where the hell is Briar? Oh God, she's in the canister. It'll be so not funny.

[1:04:21] Tina: Well, different strokes for different folks, I think that's the thing, that's what we're finding.

[1:04:25] Briar: Exactly. So thank you so much Tina for coming on the show, and it's been very interesting to talk to you and I think something that really resonated with me and I think is really important for our listeners as well to take away from this is this whole health span. It's not, we should work until we're 70 years old and then we suffer and we die of these sorts of old age diseases and things like this. We live this really wonderful, fulfilling life. Would you agree?

[1:05:03] Tina: That's what I'm looking for [inaudible] so unique what they're looking for.

[1:05:08] Briar: Yes. And please keep us posted regarding your results as well. I'd love to do a follow-up.

1:05:14] Tina: Coming soon actually, I'm about to take the test, my kit just literally arrived today. 

[1:05:18] Briar: Wow. You are about to take the test. Well, good luck with it. Looking forward to hearing your results and I'll certainly be following as well, the work that you're doing with these cities and things too, because that sounds so fascinating and it's so important that we do start living in this healthcare system rather than the sick care society we seem to have found ourselves in.

[1:05:40] Tina: Thank you so much for chatting. It's been a great pleasure.

[1:05:44] Briar: Thank you so much.